The testimony of James Thomas Tague was taken at 8:15 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your
right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. TAGUE. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler.
I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating
the assassination of President Kennedy.
I have been authorized to take your testimony
by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive
Order 11130 dated November 20, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress
No. 137.
Under the Commission's rules of procedure,
you are entitled to have an attorney present, and you are entitled
to 3 days, notice of the hearing, and you are entitled to the
usual privileges so far as not answering questions are concerned.
Since you are here without an attorney, I presume
that you are prepared to go ahead without the presence of counsel?
Mr. TAGUE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for
the record?
Mr. TAGUE. James Thomas Tague.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
Mr. TAGUE. My address is 700 West Euless in
Euless, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment?
Mr. TAGUE. I am a salesman for Cedar Springs
Dodge.
Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas?
Mr. TAGUE. Dallas; yes
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?
Mr. TAGUE. October 17, 1936.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you
were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building
at the time of the assassination, is that correct?
Mr. TAGUE. That's correct; yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you happened
to be there and what you saw, and what happened.
Mr. TAGUE. I was going downtown to pick up
my wife---she was my girl that I was going with at the time---to
take her to lunch, and I accidentally came upon the motorcade.
I was not, planning to watch the parade or
anything. There were several cars stopped in front of me, and
I stopped there myself under the triple underpass
552
Page 553
and got out and was standing there just, oh, about a minute before
the President's car came by.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was your car actually located?
Mr. TAGUE. The nose of the car was sticking
out from underneath the triple underpass.
Mr. LIEBELER. What street were you on?
Mr. TAGUE. What is the farthest street to the
south?
Mr. LIEBELER. Commerce Street?
Mr. TAGUE. Commerce; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Commerce Street is one-way going
east?
Mr. TAGUE. Right; that's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. So they stopped all traffic on
Commerce Street?
Mr. TAGUE. Cars in the left lane were stopping,
the ones next to the curb, and several cars had stopped in front
of me, and I stopped. The car was just halfway out from underneath
the underpass, and I got out of my car and stood by the bridge
abutment.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you were just out from under
the triple underpass so that you could see the President's car
and the motorcade coming on down Elm Street, is that correct?
Mr. TAGUE. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the motorcade come
down Elm Street?
Mr. TAGUE. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead and tell us what you
saw.
Mr. TAGUE. Well, I was standing there watching,
and really I was watching to try to distinguish the President
and his car. About this time I heard what sounded like a firecracker.
Well, a very loud firecracker. It certainly didn't sound like
a rifleshot. It was more of a loud cannon-type sound. I looked
around to see who was throwing firecrackers or what was going
on and I turned my head away from the motorcade and, of course,
two more shots.
And I ducked behind the post when I realized
somebody was shooting after the third shot. After the third shot,
I ducked behind the bridge abutment and was there for a second,
and I glanced out and Just as I looked out, the car following
the President's car, the one with the Secret Service men, was
just flying past at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Going on Elm Street under the
triple underpass?
Mr. TAGUE Right. Going on Elm. So I stood there
looking around. I looked up---there was a motorcycle policeman,
and he stopped and had drawn his gun and was running up the embankment
toward the railroad tracks. A crowd of people; several people,
were starting to come down into that area where he was running,
and the people pointing, and excitement up there and so on, and
about that time a patrolman who evidently had been stationed under
the triple underpass walked up and said, "What happened?"
and I said, "I don't know; something."
And we walked up to the---by this time the
motorcycle policeman returned back close to where his motorcycle
was, and we walked up there and there was a man standing there.
Seeing that he was very excited--I don't remember his name at
the time I did have it on the tip of my tongue very excited saying
he was watching the President and it seemed like his head just
exploded. This was a couple or 3 minutes after this happened.
And the patrolman said, "Well, I saw something fly off back
on the street."
We walked back down there, and another man
joined us who identified himself as the deputy sheriff, who was
in civilian clothes, and I guess this was 3 or 4 minutes after.
I don't know how to gage time on something like that.
And I says, "Well, you know now, I recall
something sting me on the face while I was standing down there."
And he looked up and he said, "Yes; you
have blood there on your cheek."
And I reached up and there was a couple of
drops of blood. And he said, "Where were you standing?"
And I says, "Right down here." We
walked 15 feet away when this deputy sheriff said, "Look
here on the curb." There was a mark quite obviously that
was a bullet, and it was very fresh.
553
Page 554
We turned around and we looked back up to see
where this possibly could have come from, and the policeman thought
he had seen something over here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, I have some pictures
here and I will show you to indicate these places, an aerial view
of the whole area, Commission Exhibit No. 354. Of course, the
Texas School Book Depository Building is here on the left, and
this is the triple underpass here, and this, of course, is Street
going toward the east.
As I understand it, your car was just nosed
out in the left-hand lane. Commerce Street and was just out from
under the railroad tracks that go over the triple underpass, so
the nose of your car was on the easternmost portion, on the eastern
side of the railroad tracks that go over the triple underpass,
is that correct?
Mr. TAGUE. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you get out of your car?
Mr. TAGUE. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do? Did you stay
near your car or did you walk on the area toward the grassy plaza?
Mr. TAGUE. I was standing 3 or 4 feet in front
of the concrete embankment right here [pointing].
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's make a No. 6 on this picture
as to where you were standing. This is the concrete strip that
runs between Commerce and Main Street right here?
Mr. TAGUE. I was standing about right there.
Mr. LIEBELER. At No. 6?
Mr. TAGUE. Yes; right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, that is where you were standing
when you apparently got hit with this flying, whatever it was?
Mr. TAGUE. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then after you had run into this
deputy sheriff, you looked along the street and you saw what you
thought to be a mark made by a----
Mr. TAGUE. A motorcycle was parked here and
the policeman was here on the grass right here, and there was
a swarm of people around him.
Mr. LIEBELER. At No. 7. Let's put a No. 7 there.
Mr. TAGUE. This man was relating his story
of how he was standing right there as he witnessed the facts.
He said it looked like the President's head exploded. And I said
I felt something hit me. We walled down here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Toward No. 6?
Mr. TAGUE. Right. When we got within about
20 feet, the deputy sheriff spotted the place about 12 to 15 feet
out from the embankment on the curb, and turned around, and we
looked up here where the policeman originally ran up on the grass
here.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is an area circled here
with the letter "C" in it. Is that where the policeman
ran toward the grassy area; included in that circle, is that right?
Mr. TAGUE. Right. I pointed this out, and we
turned around and looked toward the School Book Depository, and
from the reflection of the sun it was something on the window.
Not the---well, it is maybe five or six windows which were open,
which it was not the window that proved to be where the shots
were fired, but it was a different window like it had spider webs
or dust, and maybe shots had come through the window.
We said maybe this is where they came from.
And the deputy sheriff ran back to the policeman. I may not be
quite accurate, but I believe at the time there was a whole swarm
of motorcycle policemen coming back to the area under the underpass
going the wrong way here on Elm.
They came back and parked, and he mentioned
to them--that is probably 5 minutes after it happened, and he
was on the radio, and everybody ran up around the School Book
Depository at this time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back and fix the general
spot when the deputy sheriff saw the mark on the street, going
back to point No. 6, which is where you were standing when you
were hit. We go east along----
Mr. TAGUE. Right here is the curb.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is a curb that runs along----
554
Page 555
Mr. TAGUE. About 12 to 15 feet right on the
top of round of the curb, was the mark that very definitely was
fresh, and I would say it was a mark of a bullet.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say it is about 15 or 20
feet east of where you were standing?
Mr. TAGUE. No; about 12 to 15 feet.
Mr. LIEBELER. East of where you were standing?
Mr. TAGUE. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. At point No. 6?
Mr. TAGUE. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. So we have the point fixed there,
and we can just estimate 12 to 15 feet east on Main Street, is
that right?
Mr. TAGUE That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been on the south
curb of Main Street, is that right?
Mr. TAGUE. It would have been on the south
curb.
Mr. LIEBELER. About 12 to 15 feet east of the
point No. 6 on Commission Exhibit No. 354.
Now you yourself, as I understand it, did not
see the President hit?
Mr. TAGUE. I did not; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long after did you feel yourself
get hit by anything?
Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't
associate, didn't make any connection, and ignored it. And after
this happened, or maybe the second or third shot, I couldn't tell
you definitely--I made no connection. I looked around wondering
what was going on, and I recall this. We got to talking, and I
recall that something had stinged me, and then the deputy sheriff
looked up and said, "You have blood there on your cheek."
That is when we walked back down there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea which bullet
might have made that mark?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the
second or third. I wouldn't say definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after
you felt yourself get hit in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second
shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots?
Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir. And
I did notice the time on the Hertz clock. It was 12:29.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was about the time that
you felt yourself struck?
Mr. TAGUE. I just glanced. I mean I just stopped,
got out of my car, and here came the motorcade. I just happened
upon the scene.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now I understand that you went
back there subsequently and took some pictures of the area, isn't
that right?
Mr. TAGUE. Pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you went back
subsequently and took some pictures of the area.
Mr. TAGUE. Yes; about a month ago.
Mr. LIEBELER. With a motion picture camera?
Mr. TAGUE. Yes; I didn't know anybody knew
about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Baker Exhibit No.
1, and ask you if you took that picture.
Mr. TAGUE. No; not to my knowledge.
Mr. LIEBELER. In point of fact, that picture
was taken by another individual; I confused the picture taken
by somebody else with the picture I thought you had taken.
You, yourself did take pictures of the area
about a month ago?
Mr. TAGUE. Yes; my wife and I were going to
Indianapolis. This is the home of my parents. I was taking some
pictures of the area to show to them. This was the latter part
of May.
555
Page 556
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look at the curb at that
time to see if the mark was still there?
Mr. TAGUE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it still there?
Mr. TAGUE. Not that I could tell.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet a newspaper photographer
that day and talk to him at all about the assassination?
Mr. TAGUE. The day of the assassination?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. TAGUE. Not that I can recall. I left the
area down there at about a quarter to one, and the officer there
told me to go to the police headquarters and report to somebody
down there and tell them what I had seen.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you do that?
Mr. TAGUE. I did that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Referring now to Baker Exhibit
No. 1, does that look like it might have been taken from approximately
the place where you were standing at the time you got hit, from
the same general area?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I was back further to
the left, back down this way further.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is further toward the west?
Mr. TAGUE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Further down toward the triple
underpass?
Mr. TAGUE. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it appear to you that the
lamppost that is showing right here on the right-hand side of
Baker Exhibit No. 1 is the very end of the grassy area described
by Commerce Street and Main Street, and right down toward the
concrete embankment?
Mr. TAGUE. It might possibly be.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you able to tell for sure
by looking at Baker Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. TAGUE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have another picture here that
purports to be a picture of a curb with a bullet mark on it. I
ask you if that looks like what you saw that day.
Mr. TAGUE. It looks similar, but I can't say
whether this is the actual one or not, because you can see it
appears to be a bullet mark.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed this picture,
having marked it Tague Exhibit No. 1, and I would like to have
you initial it for the purpose of identification.
(Mr. Tague initials.)
Mr. LIEBELER. You indicate that the mark on
the curb----
Mr. TAGUE. I can't tell too much which angle
of the curb this is or what here.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is not a very clear picture
either. Actually, I can't figure which way to look at it.
Mr. TAGUE. I can't either.
Mr. LIEBELER. It looks like there is a man
standing there with a hand along the side of the curb.
Mr. TAGUE. Yes; this looks like the curb here
at the back and the sun shining down. The bullet mark was right
at the circle of the curb as this here.
Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, where the curb
turned?
Mr. TAGUE. Right. At the very round, right
in the middle of the round.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is where the street curb
turns; when it turns there? I don't understand that. [ Looking
at Commission Exhibit No. 354.]
Mr. TAGUE. This right here, this picture was
taken this way. It would be looking this way.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am still at a loss. You indicated
there is a turn in the curb at some point along here. Does the
curb end and the road go together?
Mr. TAGUE. Here is the curb here I am talking
about on the very round.
Mr. LIEBELER. On the round top of the curb?
The curb itself continues on, but the bullet struck sort of the
top edge of the curb?
Mr. TAGUE. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. I understand. Did you have any
idea where these shots came from when you heard them ringing out?
Mr. TAGUE. Yes; I thought they were coming
from my left.
556
Page 557
Mr. LIEBELER. Immediately to your left, or
toward the back? Of course, now we have other evidence that would
indicate that the shots did come from the Texas School Book Depository,
but see if we can disregard that and determine just what you heard
when the shots were fired in the first place.
Mr. TAGUE. To recall everything is almost impossible.
Just an impression is all I recall, is the fact that my first
impression was that up by the, whatever you call the monument,
or whatever it was----
Mr. LIEBELER. Up above No. 7?
Mr. TAGUE. That somebody was throwing firecrackers
up there, that the police were running up there to see what was
going on, and this was my first impression. Somebody was causing
a disturbance, that somebody had drawn a gun and was shooting
at the crowd, and the police were running up to it. When I saw
the people throwing themselves on the ground is when I realized
there was serious trouble, and I believe that was after the third
shot was fired.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression of where the
shots came from was much the result of the activity near No. 7?
Mr. TAGUE. Not when I heard the shots.
Mr. LIEBELER. You thought they had come from
the area between Nos. 7 and 5?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe they came from up in here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Back in the area"C"?
Mr. TAGUE. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Behind the concrete monument
here between Nos. 5 and 7, toward the general area of "C"?
Mr. TAGUE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up near the railroad
tracks in that area after you heard the shots?
Mr. TAGUE. I looked all around. I looked at
the complete area to try to find out where the disturbance was.
And for some reason, after the third shot, I believe I ducked
down back in here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Under the railroad tracks?
Mr. TAGUE. Right. Behind an abutment. And when
I stuck my head outside, the Secret Service car was just starting
to pass under the underpass.
Mr. LIEBELER. The car immediately behind the
President. Did you see any evidence of anybody having fired from
the area on the railroad tracks above the triple underpass?
Mr. TAGUE. None.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that it is consistent
with what you heard and saw that day, that the shots could have
come from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. TAGUE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was in fact a considerable
echo in that area?
Mr. TAGUE. There was no echo from where I stood.
I was asked this question before, and there was no echo. It was
just a loud, oh, not a cannon, but definitely louder and more
solid than a rifleshot.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you, being in a place where
there was no echo, you were able to recognize how many shots there
were quite clearly?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you say you heard three shots?
Mr. TAGUE. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing anything
else or observing anything else that day that you think would
be helpful to the Commission, that I haven't asked you about?
Mr. TAGUE. Not that I can think of. There is
lots of things that you recall about something like that, that
you don't recall for certain. What struck me the most was that
everybody said all three shots were accounted for. I felt very
strongly that the third shot hit down there, and there was the
deputy sheriff and the patrolman down under the bridge right there
with me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say you thought it was
the third shot that hit down there?
Mr. TAGUE. No; I said I thought that all three
shots were accounted for. All the newspaper accounts for months
said all the shots were accounted for.
Mr. LIEBELER. In terms of hitting in the car?
557
Page 558
Mr. TAGUE. Hitting into the car; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, there was a story in the
paper more recently that indicated that one of them might have
missed.
Mr. TAGUE. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see that?
Mr. TAGUE. That's right; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, is there anything
that you can think of that you think the Commission should know
about of what you heard and saw that day?
Mr. TAGUE. No; I don't know a thing. The only
thing that I saw that I thought was wrong. was that there was
about 5 or 6 or 7 minutes in there before anybody done anything
about anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was after the shots were
fired?
Mr. TAGUE. That was after the shots were fired.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean, "Before
they did anything"?
Mr. TAGUE. There was no action taken except
for the one policeman that I could see that stopped his motorcycle,
and it fell over on him at first, and he got it standing upright
and drew his gun, and he was the only one doing anything about
it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see any other policemen
around in the area?
Mr. TAGUE. Not for 4 or 5 minutes. If Oswald
was in that building, he had all the time in the world to calmly
walk out of there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Apparently that is just what
he did do. Well, if you can't think of anything else, Mr. Tague,
I want to thank you for coming in and for the cooperation you
have given us. We appreciate it very much.
Mr. TAGUE. Okay.